In The Eye of the World, when Moiraine learned of Ba’alzamon’s plan to find the Eye of the World, she remarked that the Pattern had brought all the threads together, first to let them know of the threat to the Eye of the World, then to provide them a way to get to it in time. It was one of the first times I really understood what ta’veren meant in this world, as Moiraine explained how Rand, Mat, and Perrin could be shaping the Pattern around themselves, or the Pattern could be forcing them where they need to be.
However, compared to the nearing climax of The Great Hunt, the Pattern’s work in The Eye of the World doesn’t seem quite so impressive. Here in Chapter 46, not just multiple people but multiple units of people are being drawn together into a great conflict with little or no knowledge of the others. Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene, and Min have no idea that Rand and company are in Falme, the Seanchan don’t know about either of them, and the Whitecloaks know very little other than that the Seanchan are invaders that must be faced. I actually feel a little bad for Captain Bornhald and his company; they are in so far over their heads and they don’t even know it. In a few chapters the Dragon Reborn is probably going to show up, and maybe Ba’alzamon too, and then there’s the issue of the damane to worry about. I really wonder what Verin is up to right now, how much she knows of the unfolding events, and what her motivations might be.
But first, let us recap Chapter 46: To Come Out of the Shadow.
Nynaeve and Elayne follow Min to the damane houses, leading Seta on the a’dam. They notice nervousness in the crowd and the commotion at Turak’s mansion, unaware of Rand and the others’ presence. Elayne wonders what all the commotion is about, and Nynaeve answers that it does not concern them (“You hope,” Min adds). They enter the house where Egwene is being kept, drawing no notice: “Just another Leash Holder with a Leashed One, and a local girl hurrying along behind with a bundle belonging to the sul’dam.”
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With enough space between them that no one will be able to see that they’re together, Min leads them carefully up through the house until they finally enter a small room. They find Egwene there, sitting at the table and resting her head on her folded arms. Her eyes widen as she realizes who they are, and she gives a little giggle.
“I know I’m not dreaming,” she said in a quivering voice, “because if I was dreaming, you’d be Rand and Galad on tall stallions. I have been dreaming. I thought Rand was here. I couldn’t see him, but I thought…” Her voice trailed off.
Min asks dryly if Egwene would rather wait for the boys, but Egwene is quick to answer that they are all the most beautiful thing she has ever seen. She’s shocked when she recognizes Seta, then observes coldly that she would like to put her into a pot of boiling water. Elayne is shocked, but Egwene tells her that she does not understand what wearing a collar is like, that Seta once made her feel that pain, and that she can never decide if Renna or Seta is worse. Nynaeve, feeling Seta’s abject terror through the a’dam, says that she thinks she understands.
Nynaeve removes the collar from Egwene’s neck and instructs her to put on Nynaeve’s dress, which Elayne has been carrying. They will walk out of here without Egwene ever being noticed, although Nynaeve doesn’t know why she’s still here, since no one had control of her bracelet.
As Min and Elayne hurriedly helped her change into Nynaeve’s old dress, Egwene explained about moving the bracelet from where a sul’dam left it, and how channeling made her sick unless a sul’dam wore the bracelet. Just that morning she had discovered how the collar could be opened without the Power—and found that touching the catch with the intention of opening it made her hand knot into uselessness. She could touch it as much as she wanted so long as she did not think of undoing the catch; the merest hint of that, though, and…
Nynaeve felt sick herself. The bracelet on her wrist made her sick. It was too horrible. She wanted it off her wrist before she learned more about a’dam, before she perhaps learned something that would make her feel soiled forever for having worn it.
She takes the bracelet off and hangs it on the peg, threatening Seta again not to cry out. But Egwene is certain that Seta wont call for help as long as she wears the a’dam, and tells Seta that she better hope that whoever finds her will remove the collar and keep her secret. Because Egwene has had a theory, one which Seta being controlled by the a’dam proves.
“Nynaeve, a’dam only work on women who can channel. Don’t you see? Sul’dam can channel the same as damane.” Seta groaned through her teeth, shaking her head in violent denial. “A sul’dam would die before admitting she could channel, even if she knew, and they never train the ability, so they cannot do anything with it, but they can channel.”
“I told you,” Min said. “That collar shouldn’t have worked on her.” She was doing up the last buttons down Egwene’s back. “Any woman who couldn’t channel would be able to beat you silly while you tried to control her with it.”
Egwene tells them that while yes, the Seanchan leash any woman channeler they can find, that only means women who were born with the spark, woman who were ready to channel whether they were taught to or not. But not just any woman can wear the bracelet. Renna told her that it is a feastday in Seanchan when they come to test young girls. Those who are perceived as channelers become damane, but other girls are allowed to try on the bracelet to see if they can use the a’dam. Those girls are taken away to become sul’dam, and, Egwene adds, are girls who could be trained to channel.
Just then they are interrupted by the arrival of Renna, who complains that she never gave permission for another sul’dam to wear the bracelet of her “pet Tuli.” It takes her a moment to see what is really going on, to catch that Egwene is no longer wearing her damane dress or the a’dam, giving Egwene the opportunity she needs to snatch up the water pitcher and smash it into Renna’s stomach. Then she snaps the collar around Renna’s neck, the bracelet onto her own wrist, and presses Renna down on the floor, her hands muffling the sounds of Renna’s screams as Egwene repays some of what she has suffered at her sul’dam’s hands.
“Stop it, Egwene!” Nynaeve grabbed Egwene’s shoulders, pulling her off of the other woman. “Egwene, stop it! That isn’t what you want!” Renna lay gray-faced and panting, staring wildly at the ceiling.
Suddenly Egwene threw herself against Nynaeve, sobbing raggedly at her breast. “She hurt me, Nynaeve. She hurt me. They all did. They hurt me, and hurt me, until I did what they wanted. I hate them. I hate them for hurting me, and I hate them because I couldn’t stop them from making me do what they wanted.”
“I know,” Nynaeve said gently. She smoothed Egwene’s hair. “It is all right to hate them, Egwene. It is. They deserve it. But it isn’t all right to let them make you like they are.”
Seta’s hands were pressed to her face. Renna touched the collar at her throat disbelievingly, with a shaking hand.
Egwene composes herself quickly, saying that she is not like them but that she wishes she could kill them. Elayne and Min agree, Elayne adding that she is sure that Rand would kill someone who did such a thing. Nynaeve answers that she’s sure he would, but that men often mistake revenge and killing for justice. Thinking of her time in the Women’s Circle in Emond’s Field, she tells the two sul’dam—or rather, former sul’dam, that she is going to leave them there in that room, and that if they are very quiet, they might be able to avoid being found until they can work out a way to get the a’dam off each other. She suggests that it is possible that they have done enough good in their lives to off-set the bad, that they will be “allowed” to remove them. If not, eventually the other sul’dam will find them.
“And I think whoever finds you will ask a great many questions before they remove those collars. I think perhaps you will learn at first hand the life you have given to other women. That is justice,” she added, to the others.
In the face of Renna’s mute horror and Seta’s sobbing, Nynaeve has to harden her heart and repeat to herself that it is justice. Then she takes the others from the room.
They have no trouble leaving the house again, and once out in the streets, Egwene points out that they will need to get horses, adding that she knows the stables where Bela is, but isn’t sure if they can reach it. Nynaeve answers that Bela must be left behind, as they are leaving by ship, but Min’s focus is elsewhere. The streets are empty… except for a formation of soldiers coming up the street towards them from the harbor. There are more behind them, Min realizes, and although Nynaeve is (at least outwardly) confident that the soldiers have nothing to do with them, all four of them are nervous and asking questions of each other. Abruptly, Egwene declares that she will not go back, that she’ll die first, and that she is going to show them what they taught her.
Nynaeve shouts for her to stop, but it’s too late, and Egwene explodes the ground beneath the foremost Seanchan soldiers on either side. Dirt rains down on the women as the surviving soldiers scatter for cover. Nynaeve shouts at Egwene for a fool; they have no chance of passing unnoticed now, and can only hope to somehow get around the soldiers through the side streets. Just then a ball of fire is hurled at them from streets away, and they have to leap in every direction to avoid it. When Nynaeve is able to scramble to her feet and look around, she can only see Elayne in an opposite alley; Elayne gestures to show that Min and Egwene went further down the street.
Nynaeve is trying to edge around the side of the building when another fireball nearly takes off her head. Her anger at being shot at finally surfaces, and lightning crashes down towards the spot where the fireballs seem to be coming from. She prays they will all still have a chance to reach Domon’s ship, and that the captain will still be there waiting for them.
On his ship, Domon watches the lightning and fireballs explode, one landing on a rooftop near the docks and sending the last Seanchan still around running. One of his crew raises an axe to cut the mooring lines, but Domon grabs it, and the man’s throat, and repeats his orders. Yarin shouts that the damane will kill them all, that their only chance is to escape now while they are fighting each other and to busy to notice, but Domon has given his word. He silently urges his would-be passengers to hurry.
Bornhald is less concerned by the lightning, dismissing it as a storm that is as likely to hinder the Seanchan as himself. He and his men stand mounted on a wide plain, the banner of the Children of the Light flying in the wind. He orders Byar to go, has to repeat himself twice before Byar, his reluctance visible in every line of him, finally goes.
Bornhald put Byar out of his mind. He had done what he could, there.
He raised his voice. “The legion will advance at a walk!”
With a creak of saddles the long line of white-cloaked men moved slowly toward Falme.
Rand and company are also cowering in an alley by some stables, the cuts he sustained from Turak stinging painfully as he stares at the stabbing lightning and wonders what is happening. He’s also watching a Seanchan patrol, and down at the other end of the alley Mat, Perrin, and Hurin are watching another. They aren’t far from where they left their horses, if they can only get to them.
“She’s in trouble,” Rand muttered. Egwene. There was an odd feeling in his head, as if pieces of his life were in danger. Egwene was one piece, one thread of the cord that made his life, but there were others, and he could feel them threatened. Down there, in Falme. And if any of those threads was destroyed, his life would never be complete, the way it was meant to be. He did not understand it, but the feeling was sure and certain.
Ingtar inadvertently drags Rand from his thoughts by observing that one man could hold back fifty at the narrow passage of the alleyway, and that it wouldn’t be a bad way to die. Rand tells him that there is no need for such talk yet, but Ingtar ignores him.
“I never knew what he was going to do,” Ingtar said softly, as if talking to himself. He had his sword out, testing the edge with his thumb. “A pale little man you didn’t seem to really notice even when you were looking at him. Take him inside Fal Dara, I was told, inside the fortress. I did not want to, but I had to do it. You understand? I had to. I never knew what he intended until he shot that arrow. I still don’t know if it was meant for the Amyrlin, or for you.”
Rand felt a chill. He stared at Ingtar. “What are you saying?” he whispered.
Studying his blade, Ingtar did not seem to hear. “Humankind is being swept away everywhere. Nations fail and vanish. Darkfriends are everywhere, and none of these southlanders seem to notice or care. We fight to hold the Borderlands, to keep them safe in their houses, and every year, despite all we can do, the Blight advances. And these southlanders think Trollocs are myths, and Myrddraal a gleeman’s tale.” He frowned and shook his head. “It seemed the only way. We would be destroyed for nothing, defending people who do not even know, or care. It seemed logical. Why should we be destroyed for them, when we could make our own peace? Better the Shadow, I thought, than useless oblivion, like Caralain, or Hardan, or… It seemed so logical, then.”
He tells Rand that he is a better man than Ingtar. “Let who sounds me think not of glory, but only salvation,” the Horn’s inscription reads, and Ingtar insists that it was his own salvation he was thinking of. He wanted to use the Horn and summon the army to ride against Shayol Ghul, hoping that this would be enough to free himself from his fealty to the Dark One.
“…No man can walk so long in the Shadow that he cannot come again to the Light. That is what they say. Surely that would have been enough to wash away what I have been, and done.”
“Oh, Light, Ingtar.” Rand released his hold on the other man and sagged back against the stable wall. “I think… I think wanting to is enough. I think all you have to do is stop being… one of them.” Ingtar flinched as if Rand had said it out loud. Darkfriend.
Ingtar admits that in the lives he saw when they traveled by the Portal Stone, he was never able to escape the Dark One. Sometimes he found the Horn, sometimes he didn’t, but always there was another task being asked of him, each one worse than the last, and he could never untangle himself. Meanwhile Rand was willing to give up the Horn to save a friend.
He tells Rand that there is always a price, and that perhaps Ingtar can pay it here. He cuts Rand off when Rand tries to interrupt, telling him that every man has a right to decide when to Sheathe the Sword. Even someone like him. Just then Hurin comes up to let them know that on the other side of the alley, the patrol has moved away and that they can escape down that way.
“Go, Rand,” Ingtar said. He turned to face the street and did not look at Rand or Hurin again. “Take the Horn where it belongs. I always knew the Amyrlin should have given you the charge. But all I ever wanted was to keep Shienar whole, to keep us from being swept away and forgotten.”
“I know, Ingtar.” Rand drew a deep breath. “The Light shine on you, Lord Ingtar of House Shinowa, and may you shelter in the palm of the Creator’s hand.” He touched Ingtar’s shoulder. “The last embrace of the mother welcome you home.” Hurin gasped.
“Thank you,” Ingtar said softly. A tension seemed to go out of him. For the first time since the night of the Trolloc raid on Fal Dara, he stood as he had when Rand first saw him, confident and relaxed. Content.
Rand tells Hurin to go, cutting off Hurin’s protest by telling him that Lord Ingtar does what he must, but they must go. Hurin accepts this, and the two leave the alley to the sound of Seanchan soldiers approaching where Ingtar stands.
The fact that Nynaeve and company are rescuing Egwene at the same time that Rand and company are retrieving the Horn, both without any reason to think the other group would ever be near Falme, is the kind of dramatic irony and suspense I love. I was surprised last week when Rand “saw” Egwene in the gardens, and I wonder if he isn’t going to fight free from all the other drama and danger to get back to her, only to find her gone. Will he know that she was rescued?
His awareness of the pieces of his life and the danger that certain threads of his life, his future, are in seems to be a new skill, one that stems perhaps from his burgeoning skill in channeling. Or perhaps the things he saw while trapped by the Portal Stones gave him a new kind of perspective, more able to see the long game of his own life—after all, he saw (lived) an incalculable number of different lives. I wonder how that counts in real-world experience? Obviously one can learn broad strokes, such as Ingtar’s realizations about his own fate, but what about individual things? A lot of folks have quibbles about how Rand was able to beat Turak at swordplay—does he remember some of what he experienced in that other life when he was in the Queen’s Guard? Has he learned to weigh his choices differently? How many of those lives can his brain actually hold on to and remember?
(On a side note, if you haven’t seen Michael Carlisle’s article about Dr. Strange experiencing multiple timelines—Doctor Strange Spent a Year Fighting the Infinity War and No One Noticed —it really is worth a read. I’ve been keeping it in mind when I think about the Portal Stone experience, but I am not someone who really understands mathematical theory so I’m not going to try to actually apply it here.)
Hearing about what Ingtar experienced in the Portal Stone gives me a better look into his character, which I really appreciate. I had rightly assumed that his quest for the Horn had to do with his Darkfriend status, and had surmised that he wanted to reclaim the Horn to redeem himself. I hadn’t considered the more literal aspect of trying to get out of the Shadow, that Ingtar felt he needed something very specific in order to break the chains of his bondage to the Dark One. Rand tells him that “just wanting is enough” to stop being a Darkfriend, but I don’t know how true that really is. Padan Fain wanted to stop being a Darkfriend, he wept openly about it in front of Moiraine and the others, but he couldn’t just confess and be free, even without the complications of Mordeth.
This speaks to the same questions I was asking last week about how the Dark One’s control over his followers is exerted in the physical world. I have no problem believing that any Darkfriend who was useful enough to the Dark One but then turned back towards the Light would find some Myrddraal and Trollocs on his doorstep in short order, either to “persuade” him reconsider or to take a very horrible toll for the desertion. But what about the “souls” of the people who pledge themselves to the Great Lord of the Dark? Is that contract so easily broken by mere remorse? Does the Dark One have any kind of metaphysical legal claim to a soul that once served him? It seems like there are some pieces missing here, and the only actual evidence we have to go on is Ba’alzamon’s control over Rand’s mother in The Eye of the World, which I’m still not sure I believe was really her, that the truth Rand saw was what he thought he saw, so to speak.
Of course, none of this explains how Egwene sensed Rand in Falme. Can wielders of saidin and saidar sense each other, despite the differences in the two halves of the One Power? Or is this more of a soul connection, something connected to the Pattern but not related to the ability to channel?
I definitely laughed when Nynaeve said that the commotion in the street was none of their concern. And although Rand and company’s actions resulted in the soldier’s presence in the street and messed things up for Nynaeve and her plans, I do wonder if Egwene’s rash decision to strike out at them might have been a really good thing for Rand and co. Seems like there are plenty of Seanchan soldiers to go around, but what with the fireballs and the lightning raining from the sky, I’m sure that distraction is good for the boys. Perhaps it is even what tips the scales from them being caught to them escaping.
I loved the poetic justice of Egwene taking down Renna with the water pitcher; she’s getting revenge on the woman who collared her and, in a way, on the collar itself. I don’t blame her at all for turning the a’dam against her captor either, but I was really moved by Nynaeve’s reminder not to let hate turn Egwene into the very thing she despises. As for Nynaeve’s idea of justice… in many ways, what she does to Seta and Renna might be crueler than just killing them outright. Not if the women manage to free each other and keep the secret, but if they are found collared like damane their lives will either end in the torture that is used to find out exactly what happened, or they might even be kept as damane. I’m sure the sul’dam who find them will act in their own self-interest, so it really depends on what they decide will best keep their secret.
And we know that at least some damane would prefer death to life enslaved by the a’dam. I rather imagine Seta and Renna will feel the same.
Oh, to be a fly on the wall for Renna and Seta’s conversation, stuck alone in that room with the collars around their necks! I wonder what they would say to each other, if sul’dam have the kind of friendships where they might be honest about their fear and horror, where they might acknowledge, if only to each other, what this means about their own identity as channelers. Seta had clearly never believed Nynaeve could control her with the collar until Nynaeve gave her the pain, and Renna seems equally shocked that the collar worked on her (although since everything happened so fast, that could have been a more general disbelief). Do any sul’dam know the truth of themselves and hide it? How might Renna and Seta feel differently about their relationship to the damane? I don’t think they are going to become secret liberators of damane or anything, but this revelation cannot leave them wholly unchanged.
Nynaeve’s assertion that Renna and Seta might be allowed by the Pattern or fate to free themselves, if they have done enough good in the world, is an interesting one. Is there a specific notion of karma in this world? If you’re a terrible person but not a Darkfriend, do you still end up in the Dark One’s domain when you die? Does the Creator ever have a direct hand in intervening on behalf of the worthy, or does the system reward good people in some way? Why do I feel like Nynaeve has absolutely no belief that these women stand a chance at that kind of grace?
Oh wait, I know why.
If I hadn’t had the commenters to elaborate on the difference between those channelers born with the spark and those born without, the explanation of the difference between sul’dam and damane would have cleared up my confusion. Hearing about the sul’dam traveling to villages to test young girls makes me think that there was also an explanation back in The Eye of the World that the Aes Sedai do some kind of testing as well—we just never saw it because the Two Rivers is too remote. It does seem like, at least for the most part, those born with the spark are more powerful. They also have sneaky little secret tricks, like Moiraine’s listening stone, or Liandrin’s control trick. I bet Nynaeve’s going to make use of a lot of little non-Aes Sedai sanctioned tricks in her time, too.
I admired Bayle Domon’s courage and honesty in sticking to his word and waiting as long as he can for Nynaeve and the others. I wonder if any of them will reach him, but in the meantime, the quick cuts between him and Bornhald really serve to add to the suspense of the chapter. It’s like the reader can feel themselves being closed in upon on all sides, which is fitting as the final battle of the novel approaches, but also because it helps us feel how Rand and Ingtar must be feeling, trapped in that alley. The feeling is needed too, I think, because despite how emotional the revelation of Ingtar’s circumstance is, the scene itself is actually a little dull.
It wasn’t clear from the narration whether Ingtar’s sacrifice was the only way to save them, or if the decision to sacrifice himself had as much to do with wanting to end it as to buy the others time. I’m sure the sacrifice helped, but it didn’t feel quite as urgent as I was expecting it to. But in any case, we now know that Ingtar didn’t let the Trollocs into Fal Dara after all. Ostensibly this means that at least one of those Shienaran men who left with the Darkfriends and whose corpses were later found after having been skinned alive were also probably Darkfriends. This puts Ingtar’s decision to have them buried in a new light; he says it should be done because they don’t know for sure that the men were Darkfriends, but it may also be that Ingtar was wondering if they were Darkfriends who had regrets like his own. He had no choice but to obey his orders and let the archer into Fal Dara—perhaps he had empathy and compassion for men who had no choice but to obey their orders to open the dog gate.
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In all honesty, I had completely forgotten about the arrow that was meant either for the Amyrlin or for Rand. I still don’t know why someone would want to shoot Rand (Ba’alzamon is still trying to get his living allegiance, after all), and I sort of wonder if the Amyrlin wasn’t the target all along. After all, there are Black Ajah in the White Tower who may be looking to take control, and I’m sure that destabilizing the running of the Aes Sedai even for a short time would be advantageous to any number of Ba’alzamon’s plans. Now I’m wondering who that mysterious assassin was, and if it’s someone we’ve already met in another context.
I guess Ingtar was probably the Shienaran soldier the man who called himself Bors saw at the Darkfriend gathering in the Prologue? How long has he been a Darkfriend, I wonder. His reasoning for becoming one made sense to me and was about what I expected it to be; his journey is very similar to Boromir’s, and despair is clearly a strong weapon in the Dark One’s arsenal, more so even than in Sauron’s. We’ve seen how the people of Fal Dar stand together, how loyal they are to each other. I can see how an exhausted and despairing captain like Ingtar might hit a point where serving the Dark One might seem a more attractive prospect than the total annihilation of the people he fights every day to preserve. I don’t know if everyone gets reincarnated in this universe, but if not, I hope Ingtar does find his way to the Creator’s hand, and I hope that he gets to see Rand save his people and bring them peace.
Then again, the Dragon is supposed to break the world again, so maybe not. No wonder so many Darkfriends are attracted to this promise of eternal life, when they think another Breaking is the future of humankind.
In the end, Ingtar’s ability to convince Rand to let him die stems from a sort of despair, too. He doesn’t know how to free himself from his bonds to the Dark One, so he chooses to do something meaningful with his death, but he still chooses death. Rand can see that this is what Ingtar wants, and doesn’t try to stop him. He didn’t tell Hurin the full story, but I think Rand’s insistence that Ingtar is doing “what he must” was phrased that way just for the sniffer’s benefit. I think Rand believes that this is the only choice for Ingtar, and not just because someone needs to stop the soldiers from following them.
Ingtar learned something important from Rand before he died. Now I wonder what lesson Rand just learned from Ingtar.
So that’s it for this week. Next week is the big one, friends. And judging by the title of Chapter 47, I think it just might have something to do with the Horn of Valere. In the meantime, I leave you with this question:
They’re not really going to leave Bela behind, are they?!
Sylas K Barrett is really sorry to see Ingtar go so soon, and would have loved to see a longer redemption arc. But he is very glad that this means Hurin will make it, at least to the next book.
About Bela: there are old theories that say that Bela might be the Dark One in disguise.
OP:
A good thought, that one. I’m sure there are many lessons that can be taken from this. What I took from it is the reinforcement of Lan’s lesson in the first chapter. Sheathing the Sword. That’s the obvious, surface one, at least. Of course, it remains to be seen if Rand is wise enough to know when he should Sheathe the Sword. After all, if he decides to do that too soon, or for the wrong reasons, the entire world is at stake.
And Ingtar’s choice has as much to do with despair, as with anything else, as you pointed out. There’s no definitive reason he has to sheath the sword there. It is a strategically good moment, but they still had options. The narrative didn’t paint them into a corner quite yet.
@1:
There are also old theories that Bela might be the Creator in disguise.
Ingtar…. my second favorite Darkfriend of the entire series! This reveal was staggering for me… I suspected throughout the book, but I never expected he would redeem himself. I thought at some point he would fight the team to take possession of the horn. And I feel like this is the first time I experienced a redemptive character that I was sorry to see go…. I admit that I have never read all the way through to Boromir’s death in Fellowship… but the movie left me with “good riddance” in my mind. I pretty much hated Boromir from the beginning.
@@.-@:
That is a failing of the medium. I think Sean Bean did what he could, but there just wasn’t enough screen time to develop Boromir beyond what they did in the movie. He has “frenemy” written all over him from the first scene. Its better in the books, as more time was taken to establish Boromir’s noble character and spirit.
Rand’s “gut feeling” about important pieces of his future being there is something I always attributed to his ta’veren nature. Feeling “tugged” in a certain direction by the Pattern.
There are many moments throughout the series where things were said or done that gave me chills when I read them. For me, Rand speaking the words of the Shienaran funeral service over Ingtar was one of the first.
@6:
I concur. That’s the impression I got as well. I think this goes back to Min’s viewing of the group in The Eye of the World. She sees how necessary each person in the group is to the whole. I think Rand feels the tugging of that need they have for each other in the weaving of the Pattern.
I don’t know how much more we can discuss about this without getting into spoiler specifics.
WHAT ARE YOU UP TO, VERIN?! I mean…. nothing much, probably, but that still made me laugh for…. reasons.
I’m not sure where Rand’s ability to feel the pieces that he needs in his life, or more accurately the allies he needs, comes from. I’m not even sure if it’s ever brought up again or if it’s one of those early-book-isms….. And, by the way, when I say “I’m not sure”, I genuinely mean that I’m not sure. It’s a detail regarding the rest of the series that I’m not positve about one way or the other.
At any rate, I personally suspect that this ability might have less to do with Channelling or Portal Stones, and more to do with Rand coming more and more into his own as the Saviour Of The World (TM), which might lead him to be more and more in tune to what, and more importantly whom, he needs to fulfil his Grand Destiny. He’s starting to directly feel his own ta’veren-ness and the threads that are being weaved around his own, if you will.
And…. due to the limitations of parallel processing, I now see that others have said essentially the exact same thing I did.
//Come to think of it, if by the end of the series Rand is actually a strong enough ta’veren that he effects the lives of everyone that is essential to win the Last Battle, regardless of how close or far away they may be in relation to him at any given moment, that would actually explain an awful lot…..// It’s just a little theory without a whole lot to back it up, but like I said….
@5, How odd. I found Movie!Boromir more sympathetic than the book version. Maybe I just have a soft spot for Sean Bean.
Every time I read that benediction/last rites, I get a lump in my throat. Rand is stepping into the role of leader, once again, and doing what he must. In some ways, he is (briefly) stepping into the role of Creator, and trying to absolve Ingtar of his sins.
@Cabban (#11)
Given the strong //Jesus//-Rand connection, I absolutely love that thought!
Would Rand have allowed Ingtar to sacrifice himself if he’d been a woman?
If I were Aes Sedai, I’d be brown!
@5 I suspected as much… I fear that the same thing will occur with the Wheel of Time tv show… but they will have at least 8-10 hours to show us, not 2-3 as Fellowship. I hope it catches on. If it doesn’t, we still have the books!
What I find more intriguing about Wheel of Time, is Ingtar wasn’t lured by magic to be a Darkfriend. Boromir was “charmed” by the ring, and I dismissed his character. It meant that Boromir feels more like a plot device and less of a character (I’m sure I’m being unfair). Ingtar chose to become a darkfriend and chose to break free… Determinism vs Free will. Ingtar seems less like a plot device. He isn’t that important but it is his position to bring out Rand’s character… “Leaving Egwene to her fate, I would damn myself.” It shows Rand’s character and how he changes others views… It is Rand’s words that allows Ingtar to break free…It is part of Shienaran culture, that Death before Dishonor and how to fix dishonor, you sheath the sword. It is all apart of the whole ta’veren business… and compelling storytelling.
@14:
To be fair to Lord of the Rings, the Ring is wielding the same influence on Boromir that it is on everyone else in the Fellowship (and far less than it is wielding on Frodo), but only Boromir succumbs to it in The Fellowship of the Ring. Likewise, in the Wheel of Time, many other Sheinarans feel the same despair that Ingtar feels, especially in regards to the Southern kingdoms, but not every Sheinaran succumbs to it the way Ingtar does. And in The Lord of the Rings (book version), Faramir, in contrast to his brother, doesn’t succumb at all to the Ring. Boromir is to blame for his own choices, the same way that Ingtar is. Others are given the same handicap as they, but do not succumb. I think the comparison is apt, and intentional.
Re: the Pattern tugging
Don’t forget that //this is pretty much confirmed in-story later. Both Perrin and Mat comment about the feeling of being tugged along with the flow of events. Heck, remember what Perrin had to go through to get away from Rand’s ta’vereness so he could go to the Two Rivers? I think it was described as almost a physical sensation.//
No, that’s a line from a prophecy about the Horn. The inscription reads “The grave is no bar to my call.”
It may even have been a good thing for the girls themselves, because it’s looking like Nynaeve promised too much when she told Domon that he would have three people on board who can fight damane. If everything had gone according to Nynaeve’s plan, then the fighting would have begun when Spray tried to sail, and diving for cover then wouldn’t prevent a fireball from lighting the ship aflame. If the girls still intend to sail, then they had better figure out a better way of fending off attacks before they board the ship.
Another thought: Egwene had to convince herself that she would never be able to use the pitcher to hit Renna – in the head. So she goes for the stomach instead. :-)
There’s so much going on at the end of The Great Hunt, by design. // I wish I could tell Sylas to stop and enjoy it while he can, since this is the last time Mat, Rand, and Perrin will ever be onscreen together in the entire series. // It’s certainly fun to read, although I can’t remember the first time I read it (which would have been in 1996 or so), and I’m not sure what it would feel like to read with fresh eyes for the first time.
I know that Seanchan culture is very strict and regimented, but I have a hard time believing that in the hundreds of years that a’dam have existed, nobody every thought to put one on a sul’dam. It just kind of stretches my credibility. Of course, it’s possible that somebody did, and then was immediately killed to keep the secret for the betterment of the Empire, I suppose. Just seems a little too convenient for me.
I never really understood Ingtar’s reasoning here for becoming a Darkfriend. Like, I get it, the dark is winning, the people you’re defending don’t care about you and think the things you’re fighting are myths. I can understand how frustrating that is. But why is the solution to become a Darkfriend? Why wouldn’t it be to just, I don’t know, go run away and become a man of leisure in Illian or something? You can’t say “because it’s not in his nature to abandon his duty,” but he absolutely did that by becoming a Darkfriend. Never made sense to me.
Fun random fact about the cross-cutting of plotlines here: as a result of this, Geofram Bornhald becomes the only character in the entire series //to have at least five separate POV’s, all of them coming in the same book//.
@18:
Huh. Really? I thought they // shared a brief moment together in A Memory of Light //, where Sanderson revealed to us all what // “easing the Badger” // means, much to our collective disappointment, lol. Was my memory faulty? Was // Rand // not there?
RE: Sul’dam
I think your read may be a bit off. First of all, its been a thousand years. My read on the situation was that they totally understood at first, but that custom and culture has blinded them to that fact over the past 1000 years. The same way the // Aes Sedai forget about how the Ageless effect is a product of binding themselves to the Oath Rod // . Of course they used to know what it meant, they’ve just forgotten it as a society, either intentionally, or through the power of time.
RE: Ingtar.
Self-justification is a powerful thing. People’s true motives are rarely what they think they are, or what they tell themselves. Ingtar was ultimately a coward, perhaps even in the end (he’d rather die heroically than live with what he’s done and work to actually make amends). What he tells Rand is truly what he believes, but it reeks of self-justification and denial. But that’s just one read on it. There are lots of other ways to interpret Ingtar’s actions. Just like with everyone in the world. That’s why Jordan is a master with character.
@18 – Lol, //you still have 2 more books before every storyline stops converging. The 3 guys area all together at the beginning of The Shadow Rising.//
@19 – No, he was not. For some reason, //Jordan/Sanderson never had all 3 meet up again, even though there were chances. It’s kinda sad, if you think about it.//
@20:
His point is we don’t get a // scene of them together on screen. We get Rand and Perrin, and Rand and Mat, and Perrin and Mat on screen, but not Rand, Perrin and Mat, in TSR. We don’t even get that in TDR, because Perrin is not in the Stone. //
@22 – Huh. I never thought about that. I will double check the book when I get home, but wow…I can’t bring a scene to mind.
@16 While you are correct // that it is confirmed later, it isn’t by Perrin trying to get away. Perrin has no trouble getting away, but Mat does. That’s because the Pattern needs Perrin to go defend the Two Rivers and turn it from a sleepy backwater place into an effective fighting force. And the Pattern needs Mat to stick by Rand so he can take about 7 levels in badass. //
@19. Agreed. Ingtar was trying to rationalize an act that defies rationalization, particularly for a Borderland soldier raised to defend against Shadowspawn from The Blight. But I like to believe that he achieved a measure of redemption by his sacrifice and Rand’s blessing.
@24:
@16 is probably referring to the beginning of Lord of Chaos, RE: // Perrin // .
@24, 26 – I don’t have the book handy, but I could swear that //Perrin felt an extreme tugging to go back to Rand. So much so that he ran his horse the whole time until he was far enough away. That was the whole thing with Rand making the Stone ring like a bell. I don’t think my memory is that bad to confuse that…but who knows.//
Rand’s ability to sense threads of his life seems to have more to due with //his Ta’veren nature and being the Dragon Reborn than channeling.// Same with Egwene ‘feeling’ that Rand was close, she cannot sense Saidin wielders.
@5 I don’t know what books you read, but the movie Boromir was far more sympathetic than the book version. In the books, it was clear from the start that he was Brom Bones/Gaston (with more integrity, admittedly) that was full of himself. His fall was telegraphed quite early was not really a surprise at all. In fact, I view it as one of the minor flaws of the movie, as the book Boromir reinforced the theory that the Ring worked on those flaws already present, and while everybody has them, it takes quite a bit to have it work on you when you don’t even have the Ring.
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That still gives me chills when I read it. Rand saying the words prior to Ingtar’s death. Ingtar being relaxed and confident with his choice.
Rand and Eg simply saw each other when Rand looked out of the window. They just weren’t sure of what they saw because of the distance (and because they didn’t know the other one was in Falme). Rand believed what he saw (maybe because of the ta’veren pull) while Eg dismissed it as daydreaming.
@28: I prefer the movie version myself. I think having Boromir fall from grace rather than fulfill expectations better establishes what happens with Frodo at the end, and also establishes a better reason for the party to split. If Boromir is just a jerk, his falling to the temptation of the Ring wouldn’t mean much. If his temptation comes as more of a face-turn for the character though, then it makes clear to everyone that they can’t continue to travel with Frodo without endangering their overall mission. Sooner or later they’ll all follow in Boromir’s footsteps.
@27 You’re correct // – when the Stone rings like a gong from Rand doing the Callandor-slam, Perrin feels a tugging and rides fast to outrun it. Prior to that he was having no problem leaving, but I’d forgotten about that brief scene. I think I interpreted that as more Perrin’s guilt at leaving than the Pattern, since the Pattern hadn’t given him any issues with leaving previously. //
Regarding Boromir, it has been awhile since I last read the books and I cannot remember my take on him there, but in the movies, I do find Boromir sympathetic. It does not come through so well with the theatrical version, but in the extended edition, the scene where he is in Osgiliath with Faramir gives him much more depth, honourability and warmth.
As for the chapter, mostly all I would have said is already said. I always put the tugging down to being a ta’veren, too, and somehow connected Egwene’s sensing with the feelings she had about Rand when she was Dreaming (though now she was awake) and partly also to the working of the Pattern.
About Rand’s blessing on Ingtar … chills. Every time I hear these words.
I was a bit annoyed at Egwene for her trick with the soldiers and the erupting ground (though I totally understood why she did it). I had not considered that sneaking out might have proved impossible anyway, and that it might have saved the boys from being captured as the soldiers were already out after them anyway. So, way to go, Egwene. The Pattern knows what is needed.
In the meantime, I leave you with this question: They’re not really going to leave Bela behind, are they?!
I just had to add it here as it made me snicker. For obvious reasons :)
Regarding Boromir, put me down on the side of thinking the movie does a better job of making him sympathetic. It comes across as a moment of weakness that he quickly seems to show regret for, followed by a selfless death trying to protect Merry and Pippin.
With regards to Ingtar’s final sacrifice, //how cool is it that he used the same loophole that Verin uses so many books later. “until the hour of my death…”//
So, for the screen version of WoT, Sean Bean must obviously be cast as Ingtar.
S
@36: Does casting Sean Bean as anyone constitute a spoiler at this point? :-p
Hmm. Point taken!
S
//Or a reverse twist: Cast him as Lan … and he survives! //
@35: No, // that was only in the three new oaths that Black Ajah swear on the Oath Rod. The Oath Rod wouldn’t do anything to Ingtar since he can’t channel; he’s not bound by anything. //
@20: There are // two more times that Rand, Mat, and Perrin are in the same place at the same time — in the Stone of Tear at the beginning of The Shadow Rising, and in Shayol Ghul at the end of A Memory of Light. But we never see all three of them onscreen at the same time again after Mat blows the Horn of Valere in The Great Hunt. //
Side note: “erupting ground” has always seemed like a really inefficient weapon to use against people with the Power. So does calling lightning. I think that getting too far into different ways to use the Power as a weapon is premature here, // but if you could take the thin line of fire that Asmodean uses to try to kill Rand as they’re running to Rhuidean, and swing that around a battlefield, you’d kill everybody with minimal use of the Power. //
@40: I suspect a significant chunk of that is use as a terror weapon, to *break* armies, not simply butcher them. We see a group of channellers fight a battle on the principle of just trying to kill as many people as they can, later, and it looks much, much different than the Seanchane way of fighting with the power.
@40 – An //oath rod// can still be used to //bind people. I don’t think that Darkfriends can get away with a simple oath. I bet they are bound in some way, if not by an oath rod.//
I recall Bors being not Ingtar. That said, @@@@@ 37, I always pictured Daniel Day Lewis as Ingtar.
Thus we can also relive the ’90s and play cast WoT.
@42: The //oath rod can’t bind people who can’t channel. That’s why Siuan and Leane were able to lie after they were stilled.//
@43: Definitely Ken Wattanabe as Ingtar.
@43 Sylas said he thinks Ingtar is the Shienaran that Bors sees at the darkfriend meeting, not that Bors is Ingtar.
I don’t get chills when Rand blesses Ingtar, I just become a teary, lip quivering mess. Every time, including reading this recap. Rand gives Ingtar a priceless gift, true forgiveness.
Sean Bean should most definitely be cast as Bela.
I believe that in the time period leading up to this story, Shadowspawn seldom if ever went south of the borderlands. They’re hard to transport, except through the Ways, and even that is dangerous. So a Darkfriend beyond that area might not have Trollocs and Myrddraal show up at their door. Other Darkfriends, more likely.
Now we see one reason why a Borderlander might join the Shadow his people have dedicated themselves to fighting – surrendering to a hopeless battle, seeking to bargain for the safety of their own homeplace in return [Stormlight Archive spoiler] ///Reminds me of Taravangian./// If you can’t beat them, it might be a relief to join them. I can see that. But I don’t live in a culture that most highly values honor, loyalty, and the fight against Absolute Evil, so have more trouble seeing a Shienaran seeing it. Yet he did.
///That’s one way to turn against the Shadow in a heroic last action…///
@36, @37
No, Sean Bean should be cast as Lews Therin then he gets to die in the prologue.
I just thought of something: How many leashed women in nearby rooms overheard the exchange in Egwene’s room, and now know that every sul’dam is actually a marath’damane?
Jimll@44:
Well, we KNOW the // Oath Rod was used on common criminals // (not just channelers) in the Age of Legends, because the books say so. I do get what you’re saying, though. Here’s how I think it works.
// In the Age of Legends, an Aes Sedai would channel in to the Binder, and the person would have to swear to whatever the binding is. In the current story, the Aes Sedain taking the oath is the one doing the channeling. It stands to reason that the oaths are severed when stilled because the Binding is in some way connected to the channeller. So, in the AOL, perhaps if the Aes Sedai who used the Binder on someone was stilled, or died, the Binding would be removed from the person who was Bound. Since there was no violent crime, and Aes Sedai lived for centuries, and since those Bound lived shorter lives (halved, approximately) as a side effect of the Binding, it would be unlikely that anyone would outlive the Aes Sedai who Bound them. //
@46:
It does make me wonder about the powers of Myrddraal, though. I know this will frustrate you especially, lol. But maybe they can jump from one shadow to another thousands of miles away. We only see them disappearing into shadows, so its a mystery. Anyway, my point is, it may not be difficult at all for a Fade to visit a Darkfriend for a little reinforcing.
@43:
I think they meant that Ingtar is the Sheinarian that Bors saw at the Darkfriend Social.
On discovering that sul’dam can channel – I always imagined that Deain and the other Seanchean Aes Sedai who would have been the first sul’dam would have understood that the ability to channel or at least learn was required to work an a’dam. But if any of the first real sul’dam (ones who hadn’t learned to channel themselves) knew that working with a damane could make them vulnerable to the a’dam, they would have made sure to suppress the knowledge. And I’m sure Luthair Paendrag and his other generals and descendants didn’t really understand enough of the power to ask awkward questions.
Probably any time in the past 1,000 years anyone discovered that a trained sul’dam can be leashed, the other sul’dam made sure the information was suppressed. // For example, we see what Suroth does with Renna and Seta to keep the secret. //
On a related topic, I always wondered how many a’dam there are. Do the Seanchan have manufactories for them (and presumably damane who are skilled at making at least one type of ter’angreal)? Or are all the a’dam relics from the consolidation, made by Deain and whomever else she had working with her? It never seems like the Seanchan treat a’dam as a scarce resource.
Bela cannot be //the dark one in disguise as the dark one cannot enter the world but simply touch it. Even when talking with the forsaken he his not in Physical form but more of a voice and uses other in which to talk through. Now it could have been a forsaken in disguise, we know Semirhage was hiding out among the Seanchan, and is a master of the Mask of Mirrors//
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Ot is never stated if the //seanchan created the a’dam however Rand with all of his Knowledge of Lews Theron had never heard of it and was shocked that such an evil ter’angreal existed, so I would say they invented them along with the rings worn by the blood knives. it also seems the high blood are aware the the Sul’dam can channel and it is part of the secrets they keep.//
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@52 I’m pretty sure the Seanchan actually do have the ability to make more A’dams. In a conversation between Egwene and her sul’dam, the sul’dam says if you can make a’dams you will be pampered as a damane…
@53:
I do believe the comments regarding Bela being the Dark One are just for fun.
Sylas, I was just curious, what’s your plan for this series? At your current 2 chapters a week pace, you would finish the series in about, oh, 20 years or so lol. Do you think you will just eventually call it quits? If you speed up the pace, say 5 chapters a week, I would recommend short recaps so you can have more time for commentary.
Pampered or not, it must be truly horrible to be one of those damane who are forced to make a’dam.
@57:
This read is on a similar pace as Leigh Butler’s read. Sylas has finished the first two books in under a year. The pace hasn’t really slowed down. Its mostly two chapters a week. Leigh started out doing two posts a week, but then did one, like this. We got through the series in about 5 1/2 years. Sylas will likely finish in 7 years, at this pace.
@59 – I was exaggerating for comedic effect. 7 years is still a looooong time.
@49 Anthony Pero
// IIRC, they had a Binder Chair that worked on non-channelers. //
From the Companion: //Binders, as they were called then, were used in the Age of Legends to bind people who were incorrigibly violent, because of personality flaws or madness. If the person being bound could not channel, an Aes Sedai had to power it, but the effect was the same.//
In the beginning of her first reread Leigh did about 10 chapters, but she had to slow down to have time to talk about them.
@50: I’m sure I’ve previously sought information about whether there are distance/location limits to Myrddraal shadow-teleportation, but I can’t find anything on the subject now. Faugh.
@58, Damane are so brainwashed that the ones making a’dam probably feel they are doing a Good Thing. The lie that channelers have to be leashed for safety is thoroughly internalized as we see later.
I’m assuming that //the assassin who Ingtar let in was a Gray Man//, but I don’t think we’ve seen one nor had an explanation about what they are yet (//I think that comes next book when Sheriam discusses them with the Wondergirls//).
One of the things that I like about Ingtar’s redemption arc is that there isn’t any discussion of something that he can do to make up for his crimes. Rather, there is an acknowledgement that some things cannot be made up and that proper redemption is a two-way relationship: the fallen party must repent, but likewise the violated party must forgive (which is an act of mercy given the impossibility of making just recompense for most crimes). Rand stands in for the Creator and all those who Ingtar betrayed, while Ingtar clearly had regrets from the moment he first received his orders, which by his exposure to Rand had blossomed into full-fledged repentance (after a detour through transactional righteousness which the portal stone event corrected him away from). For all his talk of price, Ingtar isn’t speaking about payment, so much as sacrifice to demonstrate his repentance. Simply repenting and then continuing on his way would lead to him falling back into the Dark One’s grasp (as he himself says that the Portal Stone taught him), but repenting and offering his life as a token of that repentance serves as a guarantee of his sincerity while also giving Rand the opportunity to offer him the burial prayer. Jordan doesn’t always get his metaphysical stuff right (in my opinion; //the culmination of the battle between the Dark One and Rand was amazing until the last moment when the Dark One won by tricking Rand, to name a prominent example//), but in this case he did an excellent job. Of course, I’m certainly biased because of how much I like Boromir and characters that hearken back to him (he was perhaps my favorite LotR character since I first read the series as a child).
Good evening all, long time reader, first time poster. First of all, thank you very much for your hard work with the read Sylas, I am extremely grateful that I found this journal as I had just been feeling the itch to re-read Wheel of Time, and this is scratching the compulsion quite nicely.
On to the point at hand: In reference to the confusion about Egwene and Rand’s seeming connection in this chapter, I would like to bring attention to the following quote,
“I have been dreaming. I thought Rand was here.”
Remember that earlier in The Great Hunt, we were introduced to the concept of Dreamers, and it was hypothesized that Egwene was, in fact, one of the first Dreamers in recent history. At this stage – and perhaps we will not learn more – Egwene’s Dreamer status is up in the air, along with the abilities of Dreamers. I do think that it could be reasonably inferred at this point, however, that intuiting the proximity of a subject is within the realm of a Dreamer’s ken – based on what is implied in the above line, that her intuition is heavily predicated on her dreams, and her sense of Rand’s proximity is tied in some way to that experience.
Once again Sylas, thank you very much for your hard work. I hope you are enjoying the read as much as we are, and – more importantly – as much as we did on our first adventure in Randland.
//P.S. I greatly look forward to next week, I have always had many conflicting thoughts about that chapter in particular and I look forward to discussing it with the community at large.//
@66:
Welcome Jeremy!
I forget who started the thread,
//but I just assumed and remember reading that the a’dam were created by an Aes Sedai and assumed it done with maybe a little help from Moridin, as well as the male a’dam being made with her help as payment for that making, which is likely why it is such a twisted device. Thus setting one of those Dooms he speaks of. //
Also I’m surprised no one has noted Sylas’s thoughts on the Portal Stone and his comparison to Dr. Strange. I’d even make a comparison to Dune and the Golden Path or whatever it’s called.
– Z
13. gomiller
Fascinating question! Perhaps Sylas should make a list of all the people who die for Rand, so we can keep track better of his reaction to their decision. Though it might get to be a bit much, with so many books – maybe we can just make a list of the women.
18. JimIII
I’m sure it happened, but when it happened people assumed that this one particular sul’dam was also a damane, who had somehow gone undetected. They did not infer anything about the entire class of sul’dam.
I haven’t read it, but the title is a sufficient explanation: https://www.amazon.com/Oslo-Syndrome-Delusions-People-Under/dp/157525557X
36. Silvertip
Cast him as // Fain //, just to throw everyone off.
46. AeronaGreenjoy
50. Anthony Pero
// Fades just need the edge of a shadow. We get a PoV from Shaidar Haran looking for the edge of a shadow he needs to travel back to Shayol Ghul.//
49. Anthony Pero
I’m pretty sure // the Oath Rod only worked on channelers. Sammael, when in disguise (with Graendal) and talking to the Shaido, talks about a Binding chair which works on non-channelers, as distinct from an oath rod. //
Argh, 61. mp1952 got to it first. :)
66. Jeremy M
// In TDR we see the dreams of channelers infiltrating the dreams of non-channelers (as long as they don’t bother to ward them). But to be fair, I still think you’re more likely to be right, since the dream-leakage is something we only see in TDR, and is used to set the tone, not really as a plot device. //
JL@69 re: AP@49:
As pointed out by Birgit@62, the official Companion points out how the // binder rod is used on non-channelers. //
I also remember noting the ramifications of being in the Portal Stone and Living through all those lives many moons ago. And to also note, //There are two characters who have placed in their heads memories that they didn’t have before. Rand and the Portal Stones and Matt and the past lives given him by Aelfinn.// I remember distinctly at the time arguing with a number of people in this forum and others about how it explains so much about Rands future jumping from new ability to new ability with no current experience to enable him to do so, when in fact, he could have. It’s just a memory of different realities he’s drawing from. And in fact it’s no different than //Matt doing the same.//
@28 – I strongly disagree. Movie Boromir’s fall was just as strongly telegraphed, it is just that they went to great lengths to try and make Boromir more sympathetic. Few people are “just” a jerk, and book Boromir had his noble qualities, but it is clear his character would be more vulnerable to the Ring’s influence than the others, thereby making his ‘fall’ make more sense. In book or movie, there is little indication that the other members of the Fellowship were in danger of succumbing to the Ring, though that is always a concern; there is also the issue of leading his friends to what he believed was certain death that influenced Frodo as well.
@70 & @62 // It make no sense for the Oath Rod to work on non-channelers when stilling removes the oaths. This contradicts what we are told in the books and what Sammael said to Sevannah. //
@72:
I disagree that it doesn’t make sense. See my post @49. And as far as what // Sammael told Savannah // , I’ll need to look that up, but I’m not sure why you are choosing to believe what he’s telling her about how it works, when he’s lying to her about nearly everything else. The Wheel of Time Companion, which is published by Tor in 2015, and written by Team Jordan, and is official, says the // Binders work on non-channelers // . Its in the entry for the // Oath Rod // . I’m not sure why we are still arguing this.
@68
//Re: the a’dam, it’s pretty unlikely that Ishamael was involved in the creation of the a’dam. In TPoD chapter 2, he reveals that “involuntary rings,” in other words the damane-sul’dam links, were “something that no one in his own Age had dreamed of.”
So Deain probably invented it herself.//
@73
Because Team Jordan explicitly stated in the Forward to the Companion, several different ways, that there are likely errors in the Companion that were present in the original notes. And while it’s true that //the Forsaken// lie as easily as breathe, I can’t think of any particular incentive for //Sammael// to lie about this. //Sevanna only cared about using the binder on channelers anyway: Rand, and probably Therava and the other Wise Ones.// And I would swear (though I cannot find them) that there were other references in the books to the limitations of //the Oath Rod//
Be that as it may. What I think is most likely is that there IS an inconsistency, and it’s probably RJ’s fault, either through changing his mind on the issue when he published ACoS and never updating his notes, or by simply forgetting that detail and making that error in either in ACoS or in the notes.
Monitors:
I think #28 has a minor spoiler: // It isn’t known yet that women can’t sense men channeling. In fact, Verin even implied the opposite to Rand just a few chapters back.//
//Not all Wise Ones can channel. Of course Sevanna is mostly interested in those who can, but she herself is one that cannot.//
73. Anthony Pero
I’m in full agreement with 74. fernandan.
To be honest, I found the Companion to be disappointing in this regard – on the one hand, not edited enough to be consistent with the books, on the other hand, the differences are not noted or organized in any fashion, so it sheds no light on the creative process.
At least we have Terez and her research into Jordan’s notes. Though to be honest, I’m not finding it easy to keep up-to-date with her findings, and occasionally worry that she has published fascinating details which I’ve not yet stumbled upon.
Agree with fernandan and JonathanLevy. I prefer to confirm via the books themselves rather than The Companion, regardless whether it’s claimed to be canon.
@78 – One of //the Forsaken scoffs at the current Aes Sedai and says something like, “They bind themselves like common criminals.” I can’t tell you who said it or in what book, but I’m 99% sure it was said.//
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And I just realized that my comment @79 might be spoiler-ly. It’s without context, but I wouldn’t mind it getting whited-out.
JonathanLevy @77: Can you point me to where I can find Terez’s analyses? I’ve read her analysis of // Taimandred // but would love to read other things.
gadget @72:
My response: // It doesn’t necessarily contradict it; it could be that stilling severs the connection created when the Oaths were taken and replicates the experience of removing the Oaths via the Rod. The stilled person could then be re-sworn using the methods for non-channelers.
That being said, your larger point that it’s pretty clear that Sammael said binders only work on channelers, and it’s unlikely he was lying is completely valid. //
@75 That is not a spoiler, it is a fundamental to the way channeling works, and Verin would very well know it.
@73 //The Companion is riddled with contradictions to the books and is based on notes that the Author never had a chance to go over before publication. //
@82:
Its a spoiler because the reader doesn’t learn that until the beginning of The Shadow Rising. Therefore, Sylas doesn’t know it, therefore, its a spoiler.
Not a ton to add here, but this is reminding me how much I love Nyneave :)
I’m trying to remember where I read it, but isn’t there a ter’angreal in Seanchan with which a’dam are made?